James Burton

As someone who follows the industry closely, there’s simply nothing else online quite like Primary & Secondary. For researched, well-thought out information on firearms for and by professional end-users, the Primary & Secondary website, podcast and social media is a welcome respite from the ill-informed nonsense and lowest common denominator clickbait that passes for knowledge. To learn more about Primary & Secondary, we reached out to its founder, Matt Landfair. Q: Matt, we’re huge fans of what you’ve done at Primary & Secondary. It’s been a guiding light for myself and many others as we try to navigate this sometimes uncertain landscape. Can you tell us how it began? Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: I’ve been in law enforcement for the past 20-plus years. I took a short break and came back full-time just recently. So, I’m a cop in the middle-of-nowhere. I found I can network as much as I want out here, but I’m just not going to be able to connect to the people I want to hear from. Matt Landfair on the right, at a training class with Pat Rogers... So, what I found was if I used social media as a tool, I could connect with all those people I want to hear from and compare notes with. It’s not specific people necessarily…rather it’s the professional end-user I want to hear from. As to the beginnings of Primary & Secondary...So, I found myself on the Lightfighter forum. That was my favorite forum…but it was slowly dying…a lot of people that I highly respected stopped participating there. I saw it happen. The content just wasn't quite the same. And at the same time, Facebook was growing and growing…This was 2014. So, I began looking on Facebook for an outlet that was similar to what Lightfighter had been. Q: So, what was it you were hoping to find on Facebook, exactly? Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: I went there looking simply for serious discussion…and really, AR-15s were kind of the crux of all of this because when we start talking about AR-15s, we can figure out really fast if someone knows what they are talking about. We can talk about twist rates, gas systems, we can talk about brands even…and we can get a pretty good gauge on the person when you hear what they are talking about. Especially with their desired end results, or what their desired use for this rifle is. Leaving the Bubble So, I was on this quest for the “holy grail”…somewhere I could go and talk to the professional end-users. Where I am at, there are absolutely professionals here, but sadly, a lot of them are not seeking guidance or insight from outside sources. Not very many guys will go and take professional courses to improve themselves on their own dime…on their own time. They are going to strive for only what the department provides for them. As such, there are concepts out here that have been incestual-ized…original, pure concepts have morphed into something they were never intended to be. Q: Do you find that sort of thing happens when folks get too comfortable? Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: Yes, it’s because people are just not seeking validation of concepts or procedures or ideas. They are just stuck in this bubble. I was seeking to leave the bubble. I wanted to get new sources of information. Prior to starting Primary & Secondary, I trained over at DARC multiple times. I trained with Pat Rogers multiple times…as well as with Pat McNamara and a bunch of other really great instructors. Sadly, no one in my immediate area would consider spending their own money or time to go do it. So, I was seeking to find people who were like-minded…who were looking to better themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3hz0eCegEk Pat Rogers on the importance of finding good information and a quality trainer... The Absolute Worst Ideas But going on social media, I couldn’t find that. I would go into a gun groups and we’d talk about ARs, and they would bring up the absolute worst ideas and I’d speak up. I’d say “hey, I’m an armorer, and what you’re saying just doesn’t compute.” And I’d just get bashed. It didn’t make sense to me, so I would end up going elsewhere. I kept on doing that and finally I said “All this sucks. I’m going to do my own thing.” “hey, I’m an armorer, and what you’re saying just doesn’t compute.” So, I started my own thing. It started with one group on Facebook. I had a good, tight-knit group of friends from Lightfighter on Facebook that I made moderators. I already knew that these were good guys. These are professionals with excellent reputations that I could rely on. Professional Growth And so, as time went on, Primary & Secondary grew. These professionals told their professional friends. I told my professional friends…and we grew from there. And slowly we figured out we needed to expand a bit. We explored expanding the groups…not just talking about everything in one group and have it be confusing. I thought if we expanded multiple groups, we could treat it like an old-school forum. So Primary & Secondary ended up with “sniper" group, a “gear” group where we could talk armor, helmets and nylon stuff. We could talk about “gun” stuff in the main primary group. And at that point I thought, “well why not start a real forum along with a website?” We did that, and it just continued to grow from there. Q: How was the feedback from followers? Was your approach accepted and welcomed? I can imagine some pushback… Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: People were very upset with the way we ran things at Primary & Secondary, but it was because we had expectations. We didn’t want random people just posting “well, I like this brand.” I want to know WHY you like that brand. When we would ask people to explain themselves, they would get upset, unfortunately. They were so accustomed to having information fed to them and felt they could say anything without consequence. It is so foreign now to ask someone for more info...they’d get upset. "WARNING: this group contains mostly type A personalities. If your feelings are easily hurt or you cannot backup what you post – don’t post it." via Primary & Secondary's rule page Q: So, the forums were accomplishing what you intended...how did the idea for a podcast start? Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: In about 2016, one of the moderators said, “hey, why don’t we start a podcast?” To me, it just sounded like it would be a lot of fun. I enjoyed hanging out with all of the folks that we were involved with, and we were having these long conversations over Facebook Messenger already. We thought if we could get the normal readers to get in on these conversations, it would be gold. We had old-school Chuck Pressburg discussions that just existed in Facebook Messenger. Holy crap that stuff was gold. (laughs) https://youtu.be/I4wwohV5ueI Gold...via a live Q&A on Chuck Pressburg's Patreon. So, I thought if we could do a podcast, it could just essentially be these late-night discussions of us talking about whatever. And that’s what it was. And the reason we called it “Modcast” was because it was all just Primary & Secondary moderators at that time. Q: I’ve produced podcasts for non-firearms related topics…I know it can be a full-time job trying to manage. How did you manage all that, plus the website and social media? Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: Well, it was kind of unorganized starting off. Rarely would we have a set topic. We’d just start the recording and talk for hours. People would be in different levels of sobriety…and it was a blast. It was difficult to track at times, but we had a wonderful time doing it. We progressed and slowly. In 2017, I started adding some structure to the podcast. Primary & Secondary Modcasts were no longer just the moderators. We had guests on regularly to talk about specific topics, while still maintaining a focus on the professional. Good Information Trickles Down The nice thing about focusing on the professional, that being military and law enforcement as well as contractors…is that there’s a lot of commonality. There are common tasks, a common mindset, and common concepts which trickle down to the responsible gun owner. Listen to "P&S ModCast 187 - Gun Nerds 16: The Battle Rifle" on Spreaker. So we can talk about this cool high-speed stuff, which can also help out the guy who lives on the corner and carries a gun and who is serious about it and that wants to train and be proficient. Anyone who was serious about firearms could see some benefit. Now sadly though, we still have a stigma because we’re strict with our rules. But the reason we’re strict is because we’re trying to look out for the end user… we want to provide the best possible information and avoid misleading people. "This is a professional grade weapons and concept discussion group and forum. If weapons and concepts do not fit the criteria of able to be relied on in a professional capacity (life dependent) they do not fit within the scope of this group. Effective options versus cheap and unreliable options." via Primary & Secondary's rule page Q: You talk to so many professionals …not to over-simplify, but if we, as an end-user, are looking to not be misled…what would your advice be? Matt Landfair, Primary & Secondary: I’ve been working on this with my own personal growth too, but it’s something I’ve been harping on recently: The world is not black and white, and it’s not “yes or no”. There are lot of exceptions and there is a lot of nuance in the world that unfortunately people seem to want to ignore. They want to hear “this is the best gun…this is the only gun, there’s nothing else” or “this is the best holster.” And, it’s just not always the case. Depending on what you want to do, depending on your body size and body type, the overall mission…those answers are going to vary. And it’s alright for those answers to vary. We don’t all have to be the same. The Lost Art of Nuance As an example…So, Chuck...